[OpenAjaxIDE] IDE TF Minutes 2007-07-12

Kevin Hakman khakman at tibco.com
Thu Jul 12 13:05:27 PDT 2007

IDE TF Minutes 2007-07-12

URL: http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/IDE_TF_Minutes_2007-07-12 

Attendees this week

*	Jon Ferraiolo <jferrai(at)us.ibm.com> 
*	Ingo Muschenetz <ingo(at)aptana.com> 
*	Kevin Hakman <khakman(at)tibco.com> 
*	Phil Berkland <berkland(at)us.ibm.com> representing Eclipse ATF
*	Bertrand Le Roy <Bertrand.Le.Roy(at)microsoft.com> 



Jon: Had been looking through Microsoft XML schemas and thought they
were good work but wondering about licensing. 

Betrand: The license is meant to allow creative and derivative work and
the intent is meant for broad expansive use. 

Ingo: I've added Aptana's XML and JS commenting formats to the IDE task
force page. 

Kevin: Regarding the requirements, there are about 50% green, 50% red. I
encourage section owners to convert red comments to green. 

Kevin: I don't want to get bogged down in nomenclature, but we should
nail those down. 

Jon: My vote is to approve Ajax element, API and control items. 

Phil: Fine, but seems that these terms might be defined in multiple
places in the OpenAjax wiki. 

Jon: I don't think they are in direct conflict with any other
definitions. I can check that out. 

Phil: Perhaps we create a central page that all groups can link to? 

Kevin: We can reorganize later once the document has been approved. 

Jon: To me a toolkit is a library + other things. For MS Ajax, for
example, the toolkit consists of ASP + generated JS, the IDE, etc. If
people think that definition is okay, I'll add toolkit into the
definitions for this page. 

Jon: I think we can approve the definition of component 

Kevin: Any objections? (none) 

Kevin: Jon, did your last comment about requirements and JSDoc get
incorporated into the general requirements. 

Jon: Looking through--no. My point is that there is a sizeable community
that uses the JSDoc syntax. We don't have anything about accommodating
the existing use of JSDoc and when we decide our XML format, it should
encapsulate the features of JSDoc. 

Kevin: I like that comment and a smart move. 

Betrand: I accidentally picked the same name as an existing ScriptDoc
project for the Microsoft tool. Should I change the name of my tool?
Ingo: It would be helpful to remove confusion. 

Kevin: To what extent does the MS Microsoft format accommodate the JSDoc

Betrand: I think it can accommodate the features of JSDoc. 

Jon: Both Microsoft and Aptana have gone further with their formats as a
product/commercial level of implementation and added a link to the wiki
and xml description. Both are product level description and are in
products with two mature submissions. We should move to pros and cons of
each format. 

Kevin: Requirements: Let's move onto General. 

Kevin: First bullet. 

Bertrand: Suggest moving "open standards" to "industry standards". 

Ingo: Seems like more of a philosophy for the entire document. 

Kevin: This bullet is probably not worth the discussion. All in favor of
nixing the bullet? Yeas win. 

Kevin: Next bullet with XBL. 

Jon: XBL is a component definition language. XBL is like the component
tree definition language in XAML. Also similar to HTCs. It's part of the
Firefox shipping version and came back to W3C and part o the Adobe SVG

Kevin: If we can generate that synergy, great, but it's a very soft

Jon: There's no pieces of the XBL spec that includes IDE requirements,
so anything we do there could be helpful long-term. 

Kevin: Objections to approve? (none) 

Kevin: "Accessibility" bullet. Concerned about the "MUST" status as I'm
not sure about the availability of requirements here. 

Bertrand: Is there some data about accessibility that we know exists in

Kevin: At the very minimum, there could be some data about the
accessibility in the metadata? 

Ingo: Section 508 compliance would be a useful thing to note when
developing a page with components. 

Bertrand: Perhaps an extensibility mechanism would be useful. 

Ingo: That follows what we have seen with our uses 

Kevin: I like extensibility, but not sure accessibility and localization
are part of that. Let's separate the difference between requirements and

Kevin: Mark as approved. 

Kevin: Next item: Must describe localizable controls. 

Kevin: Mark as approved. 

Kevin: May be designed to cleanly separate out non-localizable data from
localizable data. Seems like a soft requirement. Any objections to soft
MAY requirement? 

Kevin: Next requirement: Standalone metadata file. We've intentionally
removed the inline annotation piece in this bullet as the next bullet
encapsulates that idea. 

Kevin: Approve the next two bullets 

Kevin: Bullet about translating between JSON and XML 

Ingo: Greg had some issues with the ease of use of XML vs. JSON. 

Kevin: I believe it was that sometimes describing an property as an
object is inefficient in XML as you had to resort to using CDATA all
over the place. I still think the language is good, so that people can
use an XML path or a JSON path when describing metadata. 

Bertrand: Does that mean that we would need to understand JSON and XML

Kevin: I have a strong bias that the specification format be XML, but
that's not explicitly stated. 

Jon: I suggest that they "MUST" should be replaced with "SHOULD". 

Kevin: The bullet above suggests that the metadata file will be XML. 

Kevin: Betrand's section--please convert to red to green by next

Betrand: Sure. 

Kevin: Let's start with Phil's section. Should include release level of
control and APIs. 

Kevin: Mark as approved. 

Kevin: Next item: Should describe the resources on which a control

Kevin: Mark as approved. 

Jon: What about Betrand's comments? 

Phil: Those have been incorporated. 

Jon: Should we remove comments? 

Kevin: The current convention is that those comments have been approved.

Kevin: Next comment is breaking changes with previous versions. 

Kevin: Objections? Approved. 

Kevin: Next bullet is "indicate associated licenses" 

Phil: Maybe it should go to "May"? 

Kevin: Field should be mandatory, value can be optional. 

Ingo: Components could be under multiple licenses 

Kevin: Editing to handle the case where there are multiple applicable
licenses. Any comments? Mark as approved. We're very close to the vote
of the steering committee for the formalization for the working group.
Next meeting is next week. Does that work for all? (consensus is yes) 

Kevin: Tried to reach out two names from Infragistics. Jon, did you get

Jon: I couldn't get their emails. 

Kevin: I'll send those along. 

Kevin: Has anyone contacted the guy from JSDoc? 

Ingo: We attempted to contact him but no result. It seems it's a
partially abandoned project. 

Kevin: Since we are moving into issuing a specification this year, that
might be reason enough to motivate some groups. 

Kevin: See you all next week! 

Retrieved from



Kevin Hakman

Director, Developer Evangelism 

Co-Founder General Interface Enterprise Ajax Toolkit          

P: (415) 225-4259  E: khakman at tibco.com

TIBCO Software Inc.  


All information in this email is proprietary and confidential.


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